michrome (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} michrome) wrote,@ 2004-12-25 18:07:00 |
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Joe vs. Punk II
Here's a review of the match Dave gave ***** and many people will have as their MoTY when it's all said and done. It's my number 2 tentatively, since I saw their third live and felt like it was the better match. Of course, being there live can cause you to underrate or overrate things, so I'll have to wait until I see that on tape.
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk II (RoH 10/16/04)
Short history lesson:
--They met for the first time August 16th, 2003. Joe wins by countering the shining wizard and using an extended half crab. It was non-title, short, and both guys were banged up. It's not even good but you should see it before starting the series.
--Punk and Joe go an hour in Dayton, Ohio. Punk works rope a dope, using tons of headlocks, chinlocks, and sleepers while covering up every time Joe tries strikes. He tries to wear Joe down to go for the kill, but the over riding story is that Joe can go the hour. It's also worth noting that Punk hit the Pepsi Plunge, but because of a hurt knee couldn't cover, so we still don't know if Joe can kick out of that move. This match was in the ***3/4-**** range for me.
--This match wasn't even supposed to happen, it was supposed to be Joe-Corino but Corino pulled out. Not really relevent to the match but ironic considering what they put out.
--This match is in Chicago, Punk's hometown, where he is a massive babyface.
The story of the crowd becomes evident right away here, as they throw streamers for Punk instead of the champ. The opening 15 minutes are really strong, just as strong as 6/12 but in a different way. Here it's nimble and confident Punk frustrating the hell out of Joe with the headlocks, rather than trying to wear him down with some kind of rope a dope strategy. Nice bit early as Punk goes for a few rollups, Joe's key weakness. He has to use the headlocks for control of course, because early on there's no way he can really go head to head with Joe, as you see in the first strike sequence where Punk gets owned. The fact that Punk went into that head to head is the first telling change though. He's in his hometown and he's playing to win as opposed to playing not to lose. They play out a lot of power (Joe) vs. quickness/technical ability (Punk) stuff, which leads to the first transition in the knuckle lock, where Joe outpowers Punk and Punk comes out of it with that arm snap move thing. Don't know what to call it. One thing to see in this fall is that Joe is the subtle heel here whereas they worked Chicago face-face with Punk doing a little subtle heel stuff. In the opening portion Joe doesn't give clean breaks after getting frustrated, gives Punk some cocky pushes in the face, throws some cocky smiles to the crowd, and is just nasty in general.
I loved Punk's reaction to hitting that move, as he jumps on Joe's arm right away, willing to take any advantage he can get. Again, playing to win as opposed to playing not to lose. Major event happens in the corner as they trade strikes and Punk scores a knockdown. This is a bigtime confidence booster, and he'll get one more soon. He sticks on the arm like a shark, bringing a lot of nice stuff but nothing really devastating. It's a combination of keeping control and also softening the arm for the Anaconda Vice.
Joe gets a nice counter with a sweet forearm, just a perfect way for him to come out of it. It's a false transition as Punk counters right back into the headlock. They do a really nice bit here as Punk alternates between arm and headlock for control, so Joe runs to the floor to break. Punk holds on, so Joe suplexes him on the floor to break. The limbo section here is awesome, as you think Joe is about to get a firm control segment after a neat play on the chop/kick/knee segment from 6/12, but it doesn't work out that way. Punk comes back with a second major confidence booster, countering the bootscrapes and hitting his own, followed by a neat Muraco knee driver (yeah, I don't know what to call it). Punk goes for his mule kick, but Joe counters into an STF variation and totally bends Punk backwards. We're 30 minutes in and the crowd buys into a nearfall for the first time. This is enouigh to give Joe his first real control.
Joe's control is perfect, as it's a ton of subtle heeling, strikes, etc. Great stuff to get the crowd behind Punk. Loved the cocky avoidance of the crossbody that got him in June. Brilliant part showing Punk's confidence too: Joe peppers him with Kawada kicks, and Punk responds in kind with a killer slap. They trade strikes, and Joe wins of course, but in June Punk wouldn't have fought it out like that. There was a fucking sweet legsweep sequence here too. After about 7 minutes of control, Punk gets a (sloppy) rana out of the corner to send Joe to the floor, and follows with a tope.
This next part is really what kicks this match into high gear for the final 20. Punk goes for the ole kick that Joe avoided last time, and hits 2 of em. Confidence gets the best of him here, as he goes for the rana off the apron that got countered on 6/12, and it gets countered exactly the same way again. Only this time, the camera catches the brutality of the bump. Joe is PISSED now, and slams a chair into the corner for the ole kick. Punk blocks though, and they have an *awesome* strike war on the floor. Joe wins it of course, and hits his ole kick. No clapping from Joe, he's all business.
From here, we move into the homestretch. Joe gets about 7 minutes straight of nearfalls and offense here, including a crazy sidewalk slam, a DDT on the apron, a beautiful dive, and a sick spear. Great false transition occurs when Joe goes for a powerbomb, but Punk counters to the mule kick Joe countered earlier. Instead of just doing one and the enziguri like usual though, he does like 6 or 7, only to be caught with the powerslam into the jujigatame for a great near submission. Announcers duck out here too, and the crowd gets noticably louder. Crowd is buying into all of these nearfalls bigtime, and whereas the crowd felt slightly split for Punk earlier, they now seem to be 80% pro-Punk. The crowd rallies Punk when he's down, banging the rails and clapping to the beat of his AFI theme, making for an incredible atmosphere. Punk counters the powerbomb for a second time with a rana, and follows with a big boot to change the tide.
He gets a hangman's neckbreaker off the ropes, changing it up from 6/12, as well as a beautiful rope-assisted tornado DDT for a great nearfall. He moves right into the Anaconda Vice after the kickout for another nearfall. Punk goes for a suplex, Joe counters, Punk slips out, but runs right into the lariat for another nearfall. Of course, the lariat was teased earlier too. Joe then gets a brainbuster for another nearfall, after a sloppy gutbuster setup. Joe goes for another lariat, but Punk ducks and gets an awesome legsweep DDT for a long 2, as he starts to get desperate. Punk goes for Pepsi Twist, but Joe counters and hits the Powerbomb-->STF combo. Crowd goes batshit as they totally buy this as the finish, thanks to the powerbomb being teased earlier and the STF nearfall at the 30 minute mark. Punk making the ropes gets a HUGE pop. Punk goes for the wizard for the second time, and Joe tries to counter the same way he did in their first match (the legbreaker), but Punk rolls over though for a sunset flip nearfall, and then hits a shining wizard for an amazing nearfall. Punk is just desperate as all hell now, and hits his Pepsi Twist, followed by a motherfucking Muto-Style quick climb moonsault. Just a great way of showing how he'll pull out all the stops to win. The emotion here is just awersome. Crowd is 90% pro-Punk now. Punk ducks a lariat and gets the sleeper with the leg scissors, which was a hot nearfall in the first match. Crowd buys it here, but Joe recovers, hitting a backdrop suplex, but Punk rises right out of it into a double clothesline. There's your one no-sell spot of the match, and I really don't like it. It worked as far as making the crowd pop big and get even more into it, and brought us to an even spot pretty well, but considering what they do next Punk should have hit the lariat alone instead of doing a double lariat. I feel like they spent the whole match driving the crowd into a frenzy just by using basic psychology, and really didn't need that no-sell spot. It can be explained away as crowd atmosphere and desire moving Punk to a new high I guess. We move to the final part, an amazing battle on top as Punk fights for the Pepsi Plunge. Joe blocks it eventually though, and wins the battle with a superplex. Joe goes for the musclebuster, but Punk counters with a flurry, giving the crowd hope once more for the Plunge. However, time is running out, and because the announcer stupidly rushes them, they're forced to rush the finish, which is a musclebuster off the top as time expires.
On October 16th, 2004, this was the best indy match ever and one of the best American matches ever, and a clear contender for the best. It's amazing what 2 guys can do to work a crowd into a frenzy just through teases, great role playing, and a basic heel-face structure. This story is as old as wrestling, spunky babyface trying to beat the monster champion in his hometown, and they did it to perfection. The subtle heeling by Joe mixed with Punk's brazenness really provides a great contrast for the crowd to latch onto. It's impossible to go over all the good they did....the progression of roles is obvious enough, the learned spots are there but don't take away the flow, and both men show more emotion than anyone I've ever seen in ROH.
It would be unfair however, to ignore the few small flaws. Punk's rana transition was pretty messy, and Joe's gutbuster looked like Punk was expecting Joe to do it the way he did it to Dragon on 10/2. Finally, they really should have announced time for the last minute, to let the guys know how they needed to time the final portion on top, as that could have been another epic battle leading to the muscle buster. I'm confident the third match I saw live is better too, thanks to the way they really paid off 9 months of storylines in one match, but this thing is fucking tremendous and needs to be seen by everyone.
There's something about these 2 that just works. American Dragon is far superior in the ring to CM Punk, but this match is on another level. Just seeing this again has made me decide to knock Dragon/Joe down a little bit in terms of rating. This is everything wrestling ought to be, and the emotion at the end should really show something to those that claim indies and ROH are just clapfest smark promotions. See this. ****3/4
Here's a review of the match Dave gave ***** and many people will have as their MoTY when it's all said and done. It's my number 2 tentatively, since I saw their third live and felt like it was the better match. Of course, being there live can cause you to underrate or overrate things, so I'll have to wait until I see that on tape.
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk II (RoH 10/16/04)
Short history lesson:
--They met for the first time August 16th, 2003. Joe wins by countering the shining wizard and using an extended half crab. It was non-title, short, and both guys were banged up. It's not even good but you should see it before starting the series.
--Punk and Joe go an hour in Dayton, Ohio. Punk works rope a dope, using tons of headlocks, chinlocks, and sleepers while covering up every time Joe tries strikes. He tries to wear Joe down to go for the kill, but the over riding story is that Joe can go the hour. It's also worth noting that Punk hit the Pepsi Plunge, but because of a hurt knee couldn't cover, so we still don't know if Joe can kick out of that move. This match was in the ***3/4-**** range for me.
--This match wasn't even supposed to happen, it was supposed to be Joe-Corino but Corino pulled out. Not really relevent to the match but ironic considering what they put out.
--This match is in Chicago, Punk's hometown, where he is a massive babyface.
The story of the crowd becomes evident right away here, as they throw streamers for Punk instead of the champ. The opening 15 minutes are really strong, just as strong as 6/12 but in a different way. Here it's nimble and confident Punk frustrating the hell out of Joe with the headlocks, rather than trying to wear him down with some kind of rope a dope strategy. Nice bit early as Punk goes for a few rollups, Joe's key weakness. He has to use the headlocks for control of course, because early on there's no way he can really go head to head with Joe, as you see in the first strike sequence where Punk gets owned. The fact that Punk went into that head to head is the first telling change though. He's in his hometown and he's playing to win as opposed to playing not to lose. They play out a lot of power (Joe) vs. quickness/technical ability (Punk) stuff, which leads to the first transition in the knuckle lock, where Joe outpowers Punk and Punk comes out of it with that arm snap move thing. Don't know what to call it. One thing to see in this fall is that Joe is the subtle heel here whereas they worked Chicago face-face with Punk doing a little subtle heel stuff. In the opening portion Joe doesn't give clean breaks after getting frustrated, gives Punk some cocky pushes in the face, throws some cocky smiles to the crowd, and is just nasty in general.
I loved Punk's reaction to hitting that move, as he jumps on Joe's arm right away, willing to take any advantage he can get. Again, playing to win as opposed to playing not to lose. Major event happens in the corner as they trade strikes and Punk scores a knockdown. This is a bigtime confidence booster, and he'll get one more soon. He sticks on the arm like a shark, bringing a lot of nice stuff but nothing really devastating. It's a combination of keeping control and also softening the arm for the Anaconda Vice.
Joe gets a nice counter with a sweet forearm, just a perfect way for him to come out of it. It's a false transition as Punk counters right back into the headlock. They do a really nice bit here as Punk alternates between arm and headlock for control, so Joe runs to the floor to break. Punk holds on, so Joe suplexes him on the floor to break. The limbo section here is awesome, as you think Joe is about to get a firm control segment after a neat play on the chop/kick/knee segment from 6/12, but it doesn't work out that way. Punk comes back with a second major confidence booster, countering the bootscrapes and hitting his own, followed by a neat Muraco knee driver (yeah, I don't know what to call it). Punk goes for his mule kick, but Joe counters into an STF variation and totally bends Punk backwards. We're 30 minutes in and the crowd buys into a nearfall for the first time. This is enouigh to give Joe his first real control.
Joe's control is perfect, as it's a ton of subtle heeling, strikes, etc. Great stuff to get the crowd behind Punk. Loved the cocky avoidance of the crossbody that got him in June. Brilliant part showing Punk's confidence too: Joe peppers him with Kawada kicks, and Punk responds in kind with a killer slap. They trade strikes, and Joe wins of course, but in June Punk wouldn't have fought it out like that. There was a fucking sweet legsweep sequence here too. After about 7 minutes of control, Punk gets a (sloppy) rana out of the corner to send Joe to the floor, and follows with a tope.
This next part is really what kicks this match into high gear for the final 20. Punk goes for the ole kick that Joe avoided last time, and hits 2 of em. Confidence gets the best of him here, as he goes for the rana off the apron that got countered on 6/12, and it gets countered exactly the same way again. Only this time, the camera catches the brutality of the bump. Joe is PISSED now, and slams a chair into the corner for the ole kick. Punk blocks though, and they have an *awesome* strike war on the floor. Joe wins it of course, and hits his ole kick. No clapping from Joe, he's all business.
From here, we move into the homestretch. Joe gets about 7 minutes straight of nearfalls and offense here, including a crazy sidewalk slam, a DDT on the apron, a beautiful dive, and a sick spear. Great false transition occurs when Joe goes for a powerbomb, but Punk counters to the mule kick Joe countered earlier. Instead of just doing one and the enziguri like usual though, he does like 6 or 7, only to be caught with the powerslam into the jujigatame for a great near submission. Announcers duck out here too, and the crowd gets noticably louder. Crowd is buying into all of these nearfalls bigtime, and whereas the crowd felt slightly split for Punk earlier, they now seem to be 80% pro-Punk. The crowd rallies Punk when he's down, banging the rails and clapping to the beat of his AFI theme, making for an incredible atmosphere. Punk counters the powerbomb for a second time with a rana, and follows with a big boot to change the tide.
He gets a hangman's neckbreaker off the ropes, changing it up from 6/12, as well as a beautiful rope-assisted tornado DDT for a great nearfall. He moves right into the Anaconda Vice after the kickout for another nearfall. Punk goes for a suplex, Joe counters, Punk slips out, but runs right into the lariat for another nearfall. Of course, the lariat was teased earlier too. Joe then gets a brainbuster for another nearfall, after a sloppy gutbuster setup. Joe goes for another lariat, but Punk ducks and gets an awesome legsweep DDT for a long 2, as he starts to get desperate. Punk goes for Pepsi Twist, but Joe counters and hits the Powerbomb-->STF combo. Crowd goes batshit as they totally buy this as the finish, thanks to the powerbomb being teased earlier and the STF nearfall at the 30 minute mark. Punk making the ropes gets a HUGE pop. Punk goes for the wizard for the second time, and Joe tries to counter the same way he did in their first match (the legbreaker), but Punk rolls over though for a sunset flip nearfall, and then hits a shining wizard for an amazing nearfall. Punk is just desperate as all hell now, and hits his Pepsi Twist, followed by a motherfucking Muto-Style quick climb moonsault. Just a great way of showing how he'll pull out all the stops to win. The emotion here is just awersome. Crowd is 90% pro-Punk now. Punk ducks a lariat and gets the sleeper with the leg scissors, which was a hot nearfall in the first match. Crowd buys it here, but Joe recovers, hitting a backdrop suplex, but Punk rises right out of it into a double clothesline. There's your one no-sell spot of the match, and I really don't like it. It worked as far as making the crowd pop big and get even more into it, and brought us to an even spot pretty well, but considering what they do next Punk should have hit the lariat alone instead of doing a double lariat. I feel like they spent the whole match driving the crowd into a frenzy just by using basic psychology, and really didn't need that no-sell spot. It can be explained away as crowd atmosphere and desire moving Punk to a new high I guess. We move to the final part, an amazing battle on top as Punk fights for the Pepsi Plunge. Joe blocks it eventually though, and wins the battle with a superplex. Joe goes for the musclebuster, but Punk counters with a flurry, giving the crowd hope once more for the Plunge. However, time is running out, and because the announcer stupidly rushes them, they're forced to rush the finish, which is a musclebuster off the top as time expires.
On October 16th, 2004, this was the best indy match ever and one of the best American matches ever, and a clear contender for the best. It's amazing what 2 guys can do to work a crowd into a frenzy just through teases, great role playing, and a basic heel-face structure. This story is as old as wrestling, spunky babyface trying to beat the monster champion in his hometown, and they did it to perfection. The subtle heeling by Joe mixed with Punk's brazenness really provides a great contrast for the crowd to latch onto. It's impossible to go over all the good they did....the progression of roles is obvious enough, the learned spots are there but don't take away the flow, and both men show more emotion than anyone I've ever seen in ROH.
It would be unfair however, to ignore the few small flaws. Punk's rana transition was pretty messy, and Joe's gutbuster looked like Punk was expecting Joe to do it the way he did it to Dragon on 10/2. Finally, they really should have announced time for the last minute, to let the guys know how they needed to time the final portion on top, as that could have been another epic battle leading to the muscle buster. I'm confident the third match I saw live is better too, thanks to the way they really paid off 9 months of storylines in one match, but this thing is fucking tremendous and needs to be seen by everyone.
There's something about these 2 that just works. American Dragon is far superior in the ring to CM Punk, but this match is on another level. Just seeing this again has made me decide to knock Dragon/Joe down a little bit in terms of rating. This is everything wrestling ought to be, and the emotion at the end should really show something to those that claim indies and ROH are just clapfest smark promotions. See this. ****3/4
